Curse

MagmaRed · Apr 14, 2008, 01:28 PM // 13:28

HM UW clear.

5 Ursans
2 HB Monks with Seed
1 E/Me terra

Essence of Celerity, Armor of Salvation, and Grail of Might, all used by the Ursans and Monks. The E/Me doesn't use a PvE skill, and doesn't use a consumable. The E/Me gets the end chest reward, the others don't.

All it takes is a team willing to take 1 player not using PvE skills of consumables.

/unsigned

bhavv · Apr 14, 2008, 01:30 PM // 13:30

Yea I only use my monk in elite areas. Getting a team on my ursan-less elly would be a waste of time. And no, dont tell me to just go and get Ursan because I dont ever want it. I would rather prefer steamrolling through vanquishes on a dagger E/A, for the lulz.

While I dont agree with reducing drops for players that use PVE skills and Cons, something needs to be done to encourage non ursan teams that choose not to use cons.

odly · Apr 14, 2008, 01:31 PM // 13:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shanaeri Rynale

My suggestion is that if a player uses A PvE skill. or a party wide consumable then that player forfiets the ability to place the statue in the HoM and recieves reduced drops from the end reward chest. Ofc the rest of the team wont be affected to stop griefing.

It's a team game. Whatever you use that benefits yourself benefits the entire team. Therefore everyone should be punished the same way.

Most consumables are party wide anyway. In DoA groups the monks (damn those leechers) benefit from the consumables just as much as the Ursan's even if they don't use theùm themselves. In fact they are often the first to whine about the consumables going down.

/not signed.

Consumables and PvE only skills are part of the game, I see is no reason to punish people for using them.

And yes, I've completed DoA, UW and FoW without using any of them, so I'm not talking out of personal interest. Reminds me I should probably display those statues in my HoM, except I cannot be bothered doing that.

Only thing HoM is good for is to retake the primary quests form the pool.

Edit: People would just give their consumables to a single person who doesn't need the statue and he would use them all. So the argument is just about PvE only skills, and that comes down to just being one more thread to whine about Ursan.

TheRaven · Apr 14, 2008, 03:11 PM // 15:11

I'm not sure how I feel here. I don't like the OP's suggestion enough to sign it, but I think it's a step in the right direction.

I use Ursan, not because I'm in love with the skill, but because it's impossible to find a group for high end areas without it. I enjoy the elite missions and since henchies cannot enter them I'm forced to pug the areas. Nowadays you cannot pug without Ursan and a full conset. This is annoying.

The naysayers in this thread say "if you don't like it, go with your own balanced group and don't use cons!!!". Well you can't. Try finding a group that will accept those terms. You can't. At least not a good group. I joined a balanced team for fow last weekend. When they pinged their bars they were horrible. The team leader was a flare elementalist with 8 of the worst ele and monk skills in the game. The rest of the team wasn't much better so I decided to leave them before we warped in.

I used to hate the 1k entrance fee for fow/uw. Now I hate the 7-8k fee that I MUST pay for a conset before being allowed to join a team. It's ridiculous. These areas are doable without cons. I've cleared fow myself many times with just 1 friend and 6 heroes without ursan and without cons. It's possible but if I don't bring a conset I can forget about ever seeing these areas again.

Tyla · Apr 14, 2008, 03:13 PM // 15:13

Just Slash Delete.

Celestial_Kitsune · Apr 14, 2008, 03:25 PM // 15:25

Good treatment addresses the root of the problem, not symptoms. In this case, the root of the problem is PvE itself that can't be fixed in GW1. One of the problems with overpowered skills or poorly designed PvE is requirements imposed on PUGs such as r10 Ursan, having a set of consumables or being a certain profession. These requirements make grouping not a very appealing process, forcing you to play a role you might not want to take. An alternative is to organize your own team, but not many people have the experience and knowledge to do that. Thus, it is necessary to reduce prevalence of such requirements.

Since not all PvE skills are overpowered, it would be unfair to punish a player for its use. Once proper adjustments are made to the overpowered PvE skills and consumables (the emphasis is on adjustments, not complete nerfs), we might see more build diversity because the elite area completion time with Ursan would be similar to the one with unholy trinity. In the end, post-Ursan PvE will still have discrimination and cookie monsters. Anet introduced panda to give some CPR to PvE with the least effort. Let's hope that PvE in GW2 will be properly balanced and all professions will be useful and welcomed in groups.

MirkoTeran · Apr 14, 2008, 03:43 PM // 15:43

I know the PvE skill and Cons are part of a larger problem, and that something should be done with it (if its not to late already). I however am not so sure this is the right or the only way to go.

I'll sign for a pure fact that something is better then nothing.
/signed.

serod · Apr 14, 2008, 03:45 PM // 15:45

Anyway, this comes a bit too late, by the time of this thread any ursan should have mallyx, uw and fow statues in their HoM.
I mainly do HM solo (sabway ftw) and the only pve skill I use is pain inverter, I don't think my drops should be punished for that.
My main is a Ranger, got kicked out of ALLOT of DoA groups because of my profession, ursan got me that statue.

Shanaeri Rynale · Apr 14, 2008, 03:50 PM // 15:50

Thing is. if you now go nerfing Ursan etc to such a point it makes it the same as running a standard build or nerf consumables. the uproar would make the combined QQ of the Aoe nerf, loot scaling and soul reaping look like a single post on a guilds forum.

Hence the suggestion to do something other than just changing and nerfing.

It's too late to save the patient, but you can try and make their last few months pleasurable. Actually, thinking about it, that may be what the whole super power PvE skills thing may be about...

pfaile · Apr 14, 2008, 03:55 PM // 15:55

Which group is worse:

meat shield looking for nukers and healers

or

Ursans r8-10 lf hb monkeys

imo the first group is, people whine that there are only two classes now, Ursan and monks. But with the first group we open it up to 3 classes warrior, monk, and ele. Playing a para, shove off, playing a dervish, beat it noob, playing a ...........get the picture?

Ursan does solve this. If you want to play old school go here: http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/f...play.php?f=269

After all it is what everyone who wasn't one of the three classes had to do before Ursan.

N1ghtstalker · Apr 14, 2008, 04:04 PM // 16:04

droprates are worthless for me
you wanna make it even more worthless?
want me to quit GW while i'm at it?

serod · Apr 14, 2008, 04:07 PM // 16:07

It's too late to save gw, end with all those anti ursan, anti pve only skills, and anti cons threads, and let everyone get the titles they need to get "cool stuff" in gw2.
Gw pve failed since the begining (instanced pve?!?! roflmao), it's about time to give in, try pvp.
If you don't like pvp, and hate pve because of a couple of skills and consumables, try a new game.
Now, for god's sake, STOP with the ursan and cons whinning, anet won't change it, even if another 200 threads like this come.

bhavv · Apr 14, 2008, 04:13 PM // 16:13

Id rather just monk and not have to waste my money on con sets. I like the joyride to FoW chest in an ursan group, which is all its good for.

But that doesnt mean I like ursan. I also used to play necro and later on para healers in IWAY / Rit spike in HA for fast fame farming. They were overused builds that people didnt like, hence they got nerfed.

To argue that balance isnt needed in PVE is the same thing as saying there would be nothing wrong with adding a god mode feature to the game which would allow you to be invincible and one hit kill everything with a wand.

Phoenix Tears · Apr 14, 2008, 04:24 PM // 16:24

ursan is GW#s answer on their problem they caused to the game due to their unability to fix the problem about the game's issue beign so heavily multi character unfriendly, sicne Factions ...

Self with playing everything ursanway it takes way too much time to grind you a character the way through the game, way too much stuff in GW is character based, especially around titles ....
Ursan is GW's answer on speedign up the progress of getting titles ...if you didn't understood this until today, then sorry lol XD

Ursan is only overpowered due of anets lazy unability to fix other problems. Anet is lazy, they make only ever those things, which are most easily to program, take most lessest time to make and have therfore the most biggest effect for their most lessest effort they took in to try to solve the issues of the game ... what do you all expect from a game please, that charges no monthly fee ??? it was totally clear, that with time, the fixes and changes of the game become ever more cheaper and cheaper, until the game is somewhat of broken, that it becomes irrepairable, without changing lots of the games basic concepts and to change things about its lore to fix some major issues of craptastic failing concepts.

And anet does also nothing, because of the load of whining selfish asses, which would cry rivers, if anet would change somethign on the titles, to make the game again multi character friendly, like it was before the implemention of titles ...

Celestial_Kitsune · Apr 14, 2008, 04:27 PM // 16:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by serod

It's too late to save gw, end with all those anti ursan, anti pve only skills, and anti cons threads, and let everyone get the titles they need to get "cool stuff" in gw2.
Gw pve failed since the begining (instanced pve?!?! roflmao), it's about time to give in, try pvp.
If you don't like pvp, and hate pve because of a couple of skills and consumables, try a new game.
Now, for god's sake, STOP with the ursan and cons whinning, anet won't change it, even if another 200 threads like this come.

Indeed, not much can be done for PvE in GW1, but threads such as this have merit. The purpose of these threads is to let developers know that PvE has to be designed very carefully, encouraging diversity of builds. GW2 will have a Norn warrior class that will be able to transform into a bear and that alerts me. Our goal is to let the developers know that we don't want to see the same thing that we see in PvE today. Save the kittens - make GW2 balanced!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Erik Flannum

We want races to really have a pretty big impact on the way characters play. For example, the Norns, who are the big, burly, half-giant Viking guys from up in the North, all have the ability to shape-shift into a were-bear form; giving them more health and making them stronger, that sort of thing.

Source

the_jos · Apr 14, 2008, 04:31 PM // 16:31

Shanaeri,

Sorry but I really don't fully agree on your OP.
I see two main problems with PvE skills and consumables.
The first is the 'PUG-style' group. Those would not be able to finish a certain task without those things. That's wrong.
Fair to state but those problems were solved with class discrimination.
Deep/DoA/Urgoz's all had their preferred team builds and in a PUG-style group that was almost the only way with a decent chance to finish.
I think the vast majority of the community has to rely on these kind of groups to get things done.

Second is the experienced organized team.
Those teams can abuse the PvE skills and consumables and make loads of gold doing that.
While that's also not good it's a relatively small problem.
There are not that many highly organized guilds/groups who are actually able to abuse the PvE skills to an extend where it would have influence on other players.

You stated:

Quote:

However it is clear that their use has affected high end PvE in a negative way in terms of player skill, builds and profession usage. So how to balance it up.

Let's talk a little about that player skill.
Like you, I play mesmer as main profession.
I know my profession very well and also most of the game environment.
Getting in a PUG-style group was always hard.
So I have to rely on guild/friends/allies to get things done in the harder areas.
No problem, got my two vanquishing titles and my LG without heavy use of PvE skills. The only one I ever used was CoP (yes, overpowered) and sunspear sig is on some of my builds but I hardly ever use that.

But let's say I would like to play for example FoW HM.
I have access to a decent guild and it would be very easy to get a team together with a 600/smite to play 99% of the area.
The other 1% would require some work from the rest of the team, most likely forrest because of those ranger spirits.
Same with UW, I think several guildies can 55, I can play FC SS or have some guildies do that and leech my way to victory.
DoA? Part of my guild are ex-FLU members, think they know the area well enough to get me through.
Deep? Once LotU (my old guild, most members now in HML) speciality. Done it HM couple of times with the regular steel wall, no cons/PvE skills.
Urgoz's? Some members know the area very well.

What you are surgesting is that the high end PvE content should only be available to the true high-end players.
Sure, but how many guilds/alliances can truely support that?
And how many of those guilds have rather closed core teams that do this kind of things regular and the rest can only wait for a spot to get free or be active enough to get in the core group?
And if you have access, how much freedom is there to learn profession, build and skill?
Perhaps if you are longtime member you get benefit of the doubt but else you just get a build, take or leave.
Stand here, do that, use this skill at that moment.
You want to learn to play water ele? No chance, does not fit the team.
Assassin? Nice try, does not fit the regular team.

Oh and how to get in those guilds?
Common statement here on guru is 'PUGs suck'.
So you either need friends or luck to get into them.

If we are talking about improving player skill, builds and profession usage it's time for the high-end guilds to show what's possible to do with a regular team build, with or without consumables.
I've seen the 'fastest elite area times' thread and how some regular teams do things in amazing times.
It's these kinds of things that would benefit the community and not just 'nerfing' the skills the average player needs because they can't learn because the 'pros' don't PUG that often anymore.

Sorry I'm perhaps being harsh on you but I don't think this will solve anything.
Outposts like GoA, Deep, Urgoz's and ToA abandoned after the introduction of EotN and regained interest again after UB/Consumables. Before that those areas were only accessible with specific group builds. And a lot of them preferred taking known players.
At least now full human PUG teams are forming again, making it possible to meet new players.
Take away the benefit and a lot of the more experienced players will resort to their closed groups again.

If we are looking for overall improvement we should be looking for ways that would benefit teaming up with different builds.

TheRaven · Apr 14, 2008, 04:35 PM // 16:35

I know. Introduce Hell Mode.

Hell mode is the same difficulty as Hard Mode with the following changes:
- No pve skills allowed on bar.
- No consumables allowed, including old school ones like candy canes and clovers.
- Party cannot contain more than 1 of each profession (or 2 of each profession in Deep and Urgoz). Need more than 1 monk? Bring a rit. Need 2 nukers? Bring a fast casting mesmer or a PBAOE sin capable of dashing out after nukage.
- Vanquishing gives an end chest with a drop appropiate to the # of enemies killed. (The end chest for shadow's passage drops 14 tanned hide squares)
- Areas with end chests already give triple drops. (single drops in nm, double in hm, triple in hell mode)

serod · Apr 14, 2008, 04:36 PM // 16:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Celestial_Kitsune

Indeed, not much can be done for PvE in GW1, but threads such as this have merit. The purpose of these threads is to let developers know that PvE has to be designed very carefully, encouraging diversity of builds. GW2 will have a Norn warrior class that will be able to transform into a bear and that alerts me. Our goal is to let the developers know that we don't want to see the same thing that we see in PvE today. Save the kittens - make GW2 balanced!

Let's just hope that gw2 doesn't focus around titles, even better, NO titles at all.

Titles destroyed guild wars main concept of skill > time since the first second they were introduced, I would rather have some uber leet armor or weapon for doing all missions in HM instead of some letters under my name (those armors should have maxed AL depending on the profession, and weapons should be max damage too).

It's A Me · Apr 14, 2008, 04:47 PM // 16:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheRaven

I know. Introduce Hell Mode.

Hell mode is the same difficulty as Hard Mode with the following changes:
- No pve skills allowed on bar.
- No consumables allowed, including old school ones like candy canes and clovers.
- Party cannot contain more than 1 of each profession (or 2 of each profession in Deep and Urgoz). Need more than 1 monk? Bring a rit. Need 2 nukers? Bring a fast casting mesmer or a PBAOE sin capable of dashing out after nukage.
- Vanquishing gives an end chest with a drop appropiate to the # of enemies killed. (The end chest for shadow's passage drops 14 tanned hide squares)
- Areas with end chests already give triple drops. (single drops in nm, double in hm, triple in hell mode)

Lol, im up for it. Ill go through cantha with that again, would be awsome to see how frustrating it would be

Tarun · Apr 14, 2008, 05:15 PM // 17:15

/not signed - this is one of the worst "ideas" I've ever heard of in here. It's just a whine thread about Ursan and PvE skills...